Question about tea drunk and Christianity

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Re: Question about tea drunk and Christianity

Post by NeoJabez » July 28th, 2017, 1:29 pm

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Re: Question about tea drunk and Christianity

Post by Goatman » July 28th, 2017, 2:24 pm

First, before we continue down the "Goatman is a heretic" path, I am open to being corrected, if the Bible and the Church disagree with my stance. I have not found it to be so.

Let's break this down a little bit. Neo, Global, I'm sorry "Lifestyle" was not a topic of Sunday School conversation your you two. I assure you, it most definitely was for me, on many issues, including alcohol and drugs, homosexuality, and atheism.

I went ahead and pulled up every verse in the Bible that mentions "drink," "drunk," "drunkenness," "wine," "beer," and "sober." Let's see what they say, with some context:

(I'm skipping over the story of Lot, because I don't think it's directly relevant. Also, any verse that speaks on water, rather than alcohol.)

Drink:
First we come to Exodus 29:40, which mentions a drink offering. The wine was poured on the meat as it was burned, and the priests drank the residue. How much, you ask? Between a quart and a half-gallon, depending on the animal being sacrificed.
More information on the drink offering can be found here: http://biblehub.com/topical/d/drink-offering.htm

Next we have Exodus 32:6, which involves the people sitting down to eat and drink and indulge in revelry, as they celebrate the calf idol Aaron had made. Not looking good so far. However, it's worth noting that a whole lot of things are involved in the corruption here, including sacrifices. Not just alcohol.

Leviticus 10:9 is up next. Here we see God commanding Aaron and his sons not to drink wine or other fermented drink when they go to the tent of meeting. This tells us that wine and fermented drink are common in that culture, and that the priesthood partook, but that it is bad to be in the presence of God while intoxicated. Note, it's also equally as bad to be in the presence of God when doing any "unclean" thing without first being purified. Also note: "Unclean" things are not "evil" things. While it is a sin to enter the presence of God while "unclean," "clean and unclean" in Hebrew culture were in place as reminders that the people are not equal to God, and revolved primarily around matters that people had to deal with, but God did not (e.g. food, bodily fluids, dead things).

Leviticus 23 has more drink offering rules, as does Numbers 4.

Numbers 6 discusses the Nazirite Vow, which involves abstaining from fermented drink, vinegar made from fermented drink, everything that comes from the grapevine, shaving, and avoiding dead things. After their vow is complete, they are again allowed to drink wine (verse 20)

Numbers 15: More on drink offerings, along with Numbers 28 and 29.

Deuteronomy 14:23 declares that wine should be given as part of a tithe if a person makes wine. Verse 26 literally says that if your tithe is too heavy to carry, and you are too far away to deliver it, that you should sell it for silver, which you may use to buy whatever you wish, including, as it explicitly says, wine or other fermented drink.

In Deuteronomy 28, listed as a curse for disobedience in verse 39, "You will plant vineyards and cultivate them but you will not drink the wine or gather the grapes, because worms will eat them." In verse 51, that "[a nation brought against you from far away] will devour the young of your livestock and the crops of your land until you are destroyed. They will leave you no grain, new wine or olive oil, nor any calves of your herds or lambs of your flocks until you are ruined." This is spelled out as a punishment for disobedience, which means that to drink wine was not unacceptable.

Judges 13: Basically talks about Samson being a Nazirite. See above for more info on what that means. He was very bad at being a Nazirite, yet God still used him for Israel's gain.

1 Samuel 1: Hannah, Samuel's mother, is seen here eating and drinking, and being bullied about not bearing children She prays in anguish, begging God to give her a child and offering to dedicate him to God as a Nazirite. She is so anguished she is praying silently, but her lips are moving. 1 Samuel 1:12-18 holds their exchange in which Eli asks "How long are you going to stay drunk? Put away your wine." Hanna replies, "Not so, my lord. I am a woman who is deeply troubled. I have not been drinking wine or beer. I was pouring out my soul to the lord. Do not take your servant for a wicked woman; I have been praying here out of my great anguish and grief."
My takeaways: Alcohol was at the dinner table. Apparently enough is drank regularly that Eli could mistake Hannah's prayer for being drunk. It is possible that his assumption about her drunkenness is why she said, "do not take your servant for a wicked woman." But then again, it could also be speaking to her inability to drink in moderation at a simple meal, which would point to being a drunkard.

2 Samuel 13: When Amnon is drunk, he is vulnerable to Absalom's assassin.

2 Kings 16, 1 Chronicles 29: more drink offering stuff

Esther 5: Esther prepares a feast for the king, serves him wine, and drinks it with him. Under the effect of intoxication, she asks the king to come to a second banquet, this time with a man named Haman.

Esther 7: The second banquet. This time, again likely while intoxicated, she petitions the king to save her people from the genocidal Haman. Haman is impaled on a pole as a result.

Job 1: The children of Job, the righteous man, are said to be feasting and drinking wine when they are killed in a storm, while the rest of Job's livelihood is crashing down as well.

Proverbs 9 depicts Wisdom as having mixed wine and inviting those who have no sense to drink her wine and walk in the way of insight. The depiction of drinking wine as a good thing is not insignificant.

Proverbs 23 is part of a section that contains several sayings. One of which follows:
9 Listen, my son, and be wise,
and set your heart on the right path:
20 Do not join those who drink too much wine
or gorge themselves on meat,
21 for drunkards and gluttons become poor,
and drowsiness clothes them in rags.
Notice the mention of drunkards and gluttons in light of drinking "too much wine" and "gorging themselves on meat." Are you going to tell me feasting is now the same as gluttony?

Saying 19 also has to do with alcohol. it is as follows:
Who has woe? Who has sorrow?
Who has strife? Who has complaints?
Who has needless bruises? Who has bloodshot eyes?
30 Those who linger over wine,
who go to sample bowls of mixed wine.
31 Do not gaze at wine when it is red,
when it sparkles in the cup,
when it goes down smoothly!
32 In the end it bites like a snake
and poisons like a viper.
33 Your eyes will see strange sights,
and your mind will imagine confusing things.
34 You will be like one sleeping on the high seas,
lying on top of the rigging.
35 “They hit me,” you will say, “but I’m not hurt!
They beat me, but I don’t feel it!
When will I wake up
so I can find another drink?”
A little research reveals that this only happens when blood-alcohol poisoning is setting in. I have been drunk a handful of times in my life, yet the only people I know that get hallucination-drunk also call themselves "alcoholics."

Before the section on the Wife of Noble Character, Proverbs 31 includes the sayings of King Lemuel. They are as follows:
Listen, my son! Listen, son of my womb!
Listen, my son, the answer to my prayers!
3 Do not spend your strength[a] on women,
your vigor on those who ruin kings.
4 It is not for kings, Lemuel—
it is not for kings to drink wine,
not for rulers to crave beer,
5 lest they drink and forget what has been decreed,
and deprive all the oppressed of their rights.
6 Let beer be for those who are perishing,
wine for those who are in anguish!
7 Let them drink and forget their poverty
and remember their misery no more.
8 Speak up for those who cannot speak for themselves,
for the rights of all who are destitute.
9 Speak up and judge fairly;
defend the rights of the poor and needy.
This verse literally suggests allowing those who are perishing and in anguish to get so drunk they forget their pain - At the same time warning that kings who crave beer and drink wine may make terrible judgments.

Ecclesiastes 2:24-25: A person can do nothing better than to eat and drink and find satisfaction in their own toil. This too, I see, is from the hand of God, for without him, who can eat or find enjoyment?

Ecclesiastes 3:12-13: I know that there is nothing better for people than to be happy and to do good while they live. That each of them may eat and drink, and find satisfaction in all their toil—this is the gift of God.

Ecclesiastes 5:18: This is what I have observed to be good: that it is appropriate for a person to eat, to drink and to find satisfaction in their toilsome labor under the sun during the few days of life God has given them—for this is their lot.

Ecclesiastes 8:14-15: There is something else meaningless that occurs on earth: the righteous who get what the wicked deserve, and the wicked who get what the righteous deserve. This too, I say, is meaningless. So I commend the enjoyment of life, because there is nothing better for a person under the sun than to eat and drink and be glad. Then joy will accompany them in their toil all the days of the life God has given them under the sun.

Ecclesiastes 9:7-10: (feel free to look his up if you think I am taking it out of context) Go, eat your food with gladness, and drink your wine with a joyful heart, for God has already approved what you do. Always be clothed in white, and always anoint your head with oil. Enjoy life with your wife, whom you love, all the days of this meaningless life that God has given you under the sun—all your meaningless days. For this is your lot in life and in your toilsome labor under the sun. Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in the realm of the dead, where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom.

This shows it is possible to both drunk wine with a joyful heart and be anointed.

Song of Songs 5 and 9: Two places where alcohol, wine specifically, is used as an allusion to the pleasures of love. How could such a thing be possible if the pleasure of wine was unknown in the culture of the people set apart for the Lord?

Isaiah 5:11, 12 and 22 pronounce woe on those who, among other things, "rise early in the morning to run after their drinks, and stay up late at night til they are inflamed with wine... and are heroes at drinking wine and champions at mixing drinks..." Again, not so much hinting as explicitly stating a way of life, that includes other things such as bribery, calling evil good and good evil, etc.

Isaiah 22:13 depicts people who the Lord had called to weep and wail, instead celebrating and drinking wine. "Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die!"

isaiah 24:8 describes the revelry stopping in light of devastation: "No longer do they drink wine with a song; the beer is bitter to its drinkers."

Isaiah 56:12 has as part of God's accusation against the wicked,
“Come,” each one cries, “let me get wine! Let us drink our fill of beer! And tomorrow will be like today, or even far better.”
Isaiah 62:8-9 are part of the proclamation of Jerusalem's redemption:
The Lord has sworn by his right hand
and by his mighty arm:
“Never again will I give your grain
as food for your enemies,
and never again will foreigners drink the new wine
for which you have toiled;
9 but those who harvest it will eat it
and praise the Lord,
and those who gather the grapes will drink it
in the courts of my sanctuary.”
Drinking wine in the courts of the sanctuary of the Lord. Why would God have that as part of Jerusalem's redemption if being drunk was in and of itself a sin?

Ezekiel 44:21: During the restoration of the Priesthood, Priests are prohibited from drinking wine in the inner court of the temple.

Joel 1:5 reads. "Wake up, you drunkards, and weep! Wail, all you drinkers of wine; wail because of the new wine, for it has been snatched from your lips." This is stated as a part of a prophecy of an invasion of locusts. Verse 9 speaks of drink offerings being cut off from the house of the Lord.

Joel 3:3, Amos 2,4, 5, and 6 talk of evil things, some of which involve wine, such as taxing to the point of oppression and caring more about wine, a luxury, than the suffering of the poor.
However, Amos 9 speaks of Israel coming back from exile, planting vineyards and drinking wine.

Obadiah 1:16 speaks of the nations drinking themselves into oblivion.

Micah 6:15, as part of a prophecy, speaks of toiling but not enjoying the fruits, including crushing grapes, but not drinking the wine.

Habakkuk 2:15-16 speaks woeful prophecy against those who get their neighbors drunk to take advantage of them. "Woe to him who gives drink to his neighbors, pouring it from the wineskin til they are drunk, so that he can gaze on their naked bodies! You will be filled with shame instead of glory. Now it is your turn! Drink and let your nakedness be exposed! The cup from the Lord's right hand is coming around to you, and disgrace will cover your glory."
Note: It is the one serving alcohol and taking advantage of their neighbor, not the drunk neighbor, that is being prophecied against.

Zephaniah 1:13: Again, speaking prophetically about planting vineyards but not enjoying fruits.

Haggai 1:6 speaks against those who drink but never have their fill.

Zechariah 9 is particularly interesting, as it is Messianic prophecy:
I will rouse your sons, Zion,
against your sons, Greece,
and make you like a warrior’s sword.
The Lord Will Appear
14 Then the Lord will appear over them;
his arrow will flash like lightning.
The Sovereign Lord will sound the trumpet;
he will march in the storms of the south,
15 and the Lord Almighty will shield them.
They will destroy
and overcome with slingstones.
They will drink and roar as with wine;
they will be full like a bowl
used for sprinkling[c] the corners of the altar.
16 The Lord their God will save his people on that day
as a shepherd saves his flock.
They will sparkle in his land
like jewels in a crown.
17 How attractive and beautiful they will be!
Grain will make the young men thrive,
and new wine the young women.
Note, verse 17, wine making young women thrive. Not sure what that means, but it certainly speaks against the demonization of alcohol in and of itself.

______________
"Drink" in the New Testament:

Matthew 11:18-19 give contrast to John the Baptist and Jesus in light of the Pharisees' complaints:
For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, ‘He has a demon.’ The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, ‘Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners.’ But wisdom is proved right by her deeds.”
Could Jesus be called a drunkard if he never got drunk?

Matthew 24:49: amidst the warning of the day and hour being unknown, Jesus warns against a servant that believes he can get away with wickedness because his master is away for a long time, and begins beating fellow servants and drinking with drunkards, and is cast out when the master returns.

Luke 1:15 speaks to John the Baptist's Nazirite vow.

Luke 5:30, the Pharisees complain about Jesus and his disciples eating and drinking with tax collectors and sinners. Do you really think they were talking about water?

Luke 7:33-34 again compare John the Baptist's abstinence to the Son of Man's indulgence in eating and drinking wine. Yes, Jesus drank wine, enough to be called a drunkard by the Pharisees.

Luke 12:45: Luke's version of the warning of the unjust servant and the day and hour being unknown.

John 4. This one is important. This is the wedding at Cana, the first miracle of Jesus, where he turns water into wine.
On the third day a wedding took place at Cana in Galilee. Jesus’ mother was there, 2 and Jesus and his disciples had also been invited to the wedding. 3 When the wine was gone, Jesus’ mother said to him, “They have no more wine.”

4 “Woman, why do you involve me?” Jesus replied. “My hour has not yet come.”

5 His mother said to the servants, “Do whatever he tells you.”

6 Nearby stood six stone water jars, the kind used by the Jews for ceremonial washing, each holding from twenty to thirty gallons.

7 Jesus said to the servants, “Fill the jars with water”; so they filled them to the brim.

8 Then he told them, “Now draw some out and take it to the master of the banquet.”

They did so, 9 and the master of the banquet tasted the water that had been turned into wine. He did not realize where it had come from, though the servants who had drawn the water knew. Then he called the bridegroom aside 10 and said, “Everyone brings out the choice wine first and then the cheaper wine after the guests have had too much to drink; but you have saved the best till now.”

11 What Jesus did here in Cana of Galilee was the first of the signs through which he revealed his glory; and his disciples believed in him.
[/quote][/quote]

Bold added for emphasis.

Let me get this straight. These people are celebrating a wedding, carousing and having a good time. They drink ALL THE WINE AT THE WEDDING. ALL OF IT. Then, Jesus takes six cisterns that each hold 30 gallons, which amounts to a total of 180 gallons of water, and turns the whole lot of it into wine.

THEN HE SERVES IT TO PEOPLE THAT THE STORY SAYS ARE ALREADY TOO DRUNK TO CARE IF IT'S GARBAGE WINE!

Why would Jesus serve quality wine to drunk people, thereby enabling them to carry on in their drunken states, if being drunk in and of itself were a sin? Are you saying Jesus led these people to stumble, enabled, even encouraged them to do so? Would Jesus support their sin?

No. I'm sorry. You're wrong.

I've been citing verses for three hours now. I intended to add three more sections to this writeup, but I think if you can read the above passage, and say that getting drunk by itself is a sin, then I have to leave it to God to correct your thinking. Because you literally believe that God led the people at the wedding at Cana to continue sinning. Last time I checked, that was what we call Blasphemy.

We do not make a theology on a verse or two.

Allowing something mastery over ourselves is sinful. Being drunk in a moment is not becoming enslaved to alcohol. Becoming addicted to alcohol, where you believe you need alcohol, that is enslavement. I absolutely agree with this 100%. Nothing should hold mastery over us, not debt, not food, not video games, not drugs or alcohol. But enjoying Thanksgiving dinner is not Gluttony anymore than getting drunk a single time makes you a drunkard.
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Re: Question about tea drunk and Christianity

Post by Ongurth » July 28th, 2017, 2:34 pm

Remember that time we had a Bible study on how to debate theology and politics in a Christian way?

I do. That was a good time.
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Re: Question about tea drunk and Christianity

Post by Goatman » July 28th, 2017, 3:49 pm

Scribe, I wanna apologize. In my haste to post I glossed over your story.

It is absolutely understandable to avoid alcohol in order to avoid alcoholism. I hope you don't think I am discounting that, or you or your father's way of life or reasons therein. I hope it's okay for us to disagree on the point of where a thing takes mastery over us.


One point in your post thst I've wrestled with for a long time, and would appreciate your insight on. And I have no problem saying publicly that I am still developing my theology, as I believe we all should be:

If avoiding the appearance of every kind of evil means to abstain completely, why was Christ able to be called glutton, a drunkard, and a friend of tax collectors, prostitutes and sinners? Where's that line get drawn, especially in light of Cana?
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Re: Question about tea drunk and Christianity

Post by joshthelegodude » July 28th, 2017, 4:18 pm

I'm with the goat on this one. I have a hard time with taking verses like Matthew 6:24 to mean what Global says. If we're going to apply the verse to such an extent, we should start doing so with what the second half of it says (You cannot serve both God and money.) If drinking with the intent of getting drunk is a sin, then so is working with the intent to put money in savings.
1 Corinthians 6:10 also only works in this way if you're being particularly extreme. If I play guitar all day once or twice a year am I a guitarist? I'd say no. If I set up my life so I have regular times to do it am I? Almost definitely.
Globalkoas wrote: Anything that takes control of our MIND/WILL/EMOTIONS is a false god.
This is one of the most broad claims about the nature of sin that I've ever seen. Alcohol? Sin. Coffee? Sin. Gambling? Sin. Playing any game that has skinner box principles (video below) built into it? Sin. Eating any food you're craving (video below)? Sin. Spicy foods? Roller coasters? Also sin. I don't think this is a framework that can be used for anything other than thought experiments, and the utility of that is dubious.

If we're going to say that loss of self control is the determining factor, where does that line get drawn? After 2 or 3 ounces of beer, I can notice a slight decrease in my ability to taste. This, indirectly, gives me less clear decision making ability than before. Is that a good place to draw the line? What about if I'm drunk enough to have a hang over? Well I still enjoy video games and complex theology/philosophy discussions, I post the same things online, and my personality doesn't change in many of the commonly measured ways (extroversion, openness, aggression, etc.)

The Bible even has a time at which it recommends some level of intoxication in Proverbs 31:6-7. Under this bit of wisdom, it is correct to drink if your car is busted and it costs more to fix than you make in a month.

The other reasons, like causing someone to stumble are definitely worth considering. Part of the decision to make is if you want to be vigilant about who is around, where they are spiritually, etc. There's the extreme end of that as well, however. One time I was eating mexican food in the party district of the area, a few blocks from my church. The next day I received a nasty message from someone calling me a dirty sinner. Can we say I was in the wrong for eating where my mom wanted to go for dinner?

Sources:
Skinner Box Games
Cravings
Spicy Foods
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Re: Question about tea drunk and Christianity

Post by Globalkoas » July 28th, 2017, 4:45 pm

Joshthelegodude wrote:I'm with the goat on this one. I have a hard time with taking verses like Matthew 6:24 to mean what Global says. If we're going to apply the verse to such an extent, we should start doing so with what the second half of it says (You cannot serve both God and money.) If drinking with the intent of getting drunk is a sin, then so is working with the intent to put money in savings.
1 Corinthians 6:10 also only works in this way if you're being particularly extreme. If I play guitar all day once or twice a year am I a guitarist? I'd say no. If I set up my life so I have regular times to do it am I? Almost definitely.
Now your grabbing at things to make your view.. Chasing the almighty "dollar" could and will make people stumble. If you WILL stop at nothing to make the money and you stumble. ?? If doing anything in our lives makes us stumble and not glorify God then what is it??

To much eating/gaming/gambling/or as you bring up playing your playing your guitar??etc.. anything in excess can make us stumble. I know a guy that lost his wife/house/job/family.. for what.. hunting... He let his obsession with it take over every part of his life. Need I remind you of these:
Pride is excessive belief in one's own abilities, that interferes with the individual's recognition of the grace of God. It has been called the sin from which all others arise. Pride is also known as Vanity.

Envy is the desire for others' traits, status, abilities, or situation.

Gluttony is an inordinate desire to consume more than that which one requires.

Lust is an inordinate craving for the pleasures of the body.

Anger is manifested in the individual who spurns love and opts instead for fury. It is also known as Wrath.

Greed is the desire for material wealth or gain, ignoring the realm of the spiritual. It is also called Avarice or Covetousness.

Sloth is the avoidance of physical or spiritual work.

Joshthelegodude wrote:The Bible even has a time at which it recommends some level of intoxication in Proverbs 31:6-7. Under this bit of wisdom, it is correct to drink if your car is busted and it costs more to fix than you make in a month.
God is saying giving a dying man a drink so you calm him here in his last moments.. not hey lets get the man drunk on his way out. There is no where in the bible it says because you are having a bad day and your car is broken down you need to get wasted.. come on man.. give me a break..
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Re: Question about tea drunk and Christianity

Post by Goatman » July 28th, 2017, 5:04 pm

You proved his point though. Along with all of the excesses you listed is drunkenness. Not drunkness.
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Re: Question about tea drunk and Christianity

Post by The Winged Scribe » July 28th, 2017, 5:57 pm

Goatman wrote:If avoiding the appearance of every kind of evil means to abstain completely, why was Christ able to be called glutton, a drunkard, and a friend of tax collectors, prostitutes and sinners? Where's that line get drawn, especially in light of Cana?
Fun question.

First off, I think it pays for us to see who specifically said those words...
Matthew 9:11 wrote: And when the Pharisees saw this, they said to his disciples, “Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and sinners?”
Luke 15:2 wrote:And the Pharisees and the scribes grumbled, saying, “This man receives sinners and eats with them.”
Luke 5:30 wrote:And the Pharisees and their scribes grumbled at his disciples, saying, “Why do you eat and drink with tax collectors and sinners?”
But the verse that use the words of your question is found in Matthew 11:19.
Matthew 11:19 wrote:The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, ‘Look at him! A glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’ Yet wisdom is justified by her deeds.”
So, the first three verses seem pretty simple to figure out: it was the Pharisees that accused Jesus this way. But what about that last verse? Well, that was actually Jesus that said that. If we zoom out a bit, we see that Jesus is actually talking to the crowds about John the Baptizer. But...that verse doesn't mention John anywhere. And you're right. But if we back up a few verse, we suddenly see a different spin...
Matthew 11:16-19 wrote:“But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the marketplaces and calling to their playmates,

“‘We played the flute for you, and you did not dance;
we sang a dirge, and you did not mourn.’

For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, ‘He has a demon.’ The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, ‘Look at him! A glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’ Yet wisdom is justified by her deeds.”
NOW we have some context to work with. The religious leaders of the time were perplexed and upset by the teachings of both Jesus and John, and sought to discredit them with these accusations. We see this frequently throughout Jesus' ministry in particular.
Matthew 12:14 wrote:But the Pharisees went out and conspired against him, how to destroy him.
Mark 11:18 wrote:And the chief priests and the scribes heard it and were seeking a way to destroy him, for they feared him, because all the crowd was astonished at his teaching.
Matthew 16:1 wrote:And the Pharisees and Sadducees came, and to test him they asked him to show them a sign from heaven.
Matthew 21:46 wrote:And although they were seeking to arrest him, they feared the crowds, because they held him to be a prophet.
Good gracious, were they ever out to get him. They tried on numerous occasions to arrest Jesus, or to trip Him up, or to discredit Him in whatever way they could. But one thing in particular stands out to me: none of it stuck. None of the traps or accusations they tried to use against Jesus worked. They called Him a glutton and a friend of tax collectors. They tested Him with interpretation of the law. They asked for a sign. They tried to stone Him. Again and again, they set out with the singular purpose of destroying Jesus. But they never could.

In the end, they had to rely on trumped-up charges and false witnesses to even get him to trial. In fact, before Pontius Pilate, the Roman governor found no basis for a charge against Him, and only sent Jesus to the cross because he was scared of the crowd.

Why does this matter? Because Jesus' actions outshone their accusations. Anything they said or tried to accuse Him of collapsed almost immediately because His reputation was such that people knew it wasn't true. The implication of being a "friend of tax collectors" was that he was hanging out with some of the most despised and hated sinners imaginable, so He had to be from the same stretch of fabric, so to speak. But the truth was far too evident:
Luke 5:31-32 wrote:And Jesus answered them, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. I have not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance.”
Look at Zaccheus. A hated tax collector who, after his encounter with Jesus, was a changed man. Jesus didn't go to the sinners to prove He was one of them--He went to sinners to bring them to repentance.

So, a) Jesus was called a glutton and a drunkard as an attempt to discredit Him. The allegation was built on a small bit of truth, but the whole truth painted a much different picture.

That being said, b) the truth comes out. Eventually, the truth wins out and everything comes to light. If Jesus had been a sinner like the tax collectors, eventually, that would have become evident. But it never did. The same goes for us. The truth of our actions will get out. And, as Jesus said back in Matthew 11, "wisdom is justified by her deeds."

And as for the final question, "where do we draw the line?" Well, I like to think that this is a pretty good place to put one:
1 Corinthians 10:31 wrote:So, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God.
In my heart, I cannot reconcile the action of getting drunk being done "to the glory of God." If you can, then more power to you. As a result, I refrain from drinking at all, because I know that I personally cannot get drunk and glorify God at the same time. But as I've stated several times before, I do not believe that abstinence is the only way. I have family members that enjoy having wine or beer on occasion, and I really hope they enjoy it and are able to give God the glory as they do. I'm just of a breed that has chosen not to do so.
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The Doctor
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Re: Question about tea drunk and Christianity

Post by The Doctor » July 28th, 2017, 6:05 pm

Originally I wasn't going to put my 2 cents worth into this, as I didn't have a lot to add. But, after reading recent posts, I feel the need to say a few things.

Goat, when I looked at your post, I noticed that many of the verses you cited have more so to do with drinking alcohol than there are about getting drunk (and yes, there is a difference. A very important one at that). So, I will address that first.

As mentioned many times, there in fact was widespread alcohol in those days. Wine was used, from what I gather, for 3 main purposes. The first was, of course, to get drunk. I'll go into that more later. The other 2 are a little more interesting.

One of these was medical purposes. In ancient Egypt, they would put medical herbs in the wine, supposedly because they would dissolve into the wine better. The Romans would use it as a method to extract active elements from medical plants.

The final, and most widespread use, is the one that is interesting to us. Water, in ancient times, was not as clean as today's. This meant that the water would quite possibly get them sick just by drinking it. That's where the wine would come in. Wine was much cleaner, as during the fermentation process microbes would be killed. So, in order to prevent getting sick, they would have to drink wine. However, if they drank wine all day, they would end up drunk by lunch. What people figured out was that if you put a little wine into the water, it would effectively purify the water. This is what they would drink at meals, or any other time when they needed some water.

With this in mind, it is easily safe to say that drinking alcohol is not sin in it of itself.

Being drunk, on the other hand, is another story.

Jesus Himself warned against becoming drunk in Luke 12:45. The servant is cast in a negative light for beating the other servants, and the second part where the servant is described as "and to eat and drink and get drunk." At some point in this phrase there must be a sin, and if one were to claim that the only sin was gluttony,then why is getting drunk mentioned?Not only that, but nowhere in the verse does it mention doing that the servant did this multiple time. For all we know, the master came back after the first time.

There are also many other verses where being drunk is referred to as sinful, but I would rather not go through each one. I have neither the time nor the dedication. I would rather move on to the story of Jesus turning water to wine. And I do believe I am going to pull a Global, as Gotquestions puts this much better than I ever could.
gotquestions.org wrote:Question: "Did Jesus change the water into wine or grape juice?"

Answer: John chapter 2 records Jesus performing a miracle at a wedding in Cana of Galilee. At the wedding, the hosts ran out of wine. Jesus' mother, Mary, asks Jesus to intervene, and He does so, reluctantly. Jesus has the servants bring six jars filled with water and then instructs the servants to give it to the overseer of the celebration. The water miraculously turns into wine, and the overseer declares that it was the best wine he had ever tasted. In this account, Jesus performed an amazing miracle, actually altering the molecular composition of the water, changing it into wine. The point of the account is summarized in John 2:11, "He thus revealed His glory, and His disciples put their faith in Him." Usually, though, when this passage is studied, a side issue becomes the main issue. Did Jesus transform the water into wine (fermented, alcoholic) or into grape juice (non-alcoholic)?

Throughout the passage, the Greek word translated "wine" is oinos, which was the common Greek word for normal wine, wine that was fermented/alcoholic. The Greek word for the wine Jesus created is the same word for the wine the wedding feast ran out of. The Greek word for the wine Jesus created is also the same word that is used in Ephesians 5:18, "...do not get drunk on wine..." Obviously, getting drunk from drinking wine requires the presence of alcohol. Everything, from the context of a wedding feast, to the usage of oinos in 1st century Greek literature (in the New Testament and outside the New Testament), argues for the wine that Jesus created to be normal, ordinary wine, containing alcohol. There is simply no solid historical, cultural, exegetical, contextual, or lexical reason to understand it to have been grape juice.

Those who oppose the drinking of alcohol, in any quantity, argue that Jesus would not have turned the water into wine, as He would have been promoting the consumption of a substance that is tainted by sin. In this understanding, alcohol itself is inherently sinful, and consumption of alcohol in any quantity is sin. That is not a biblical understanding, however. Some Scriptures discuss alcohol in positive terms. Ecclesiastes 9:7 instructs, “Drink your wine with a merry heart.” Psalm 104:14-15 states that God gives wine “that makes glad the heart of men.” Amos 9:14 discusses drinking wine from your own vineyard as a sign of God’s blessing. Isaiah 55:1 encourages, “Yes, come buy wine and milk…” From these and other Scriptures, it is clear that alcohol itself is not inherently sinful. Rather, it is the abuse of alcohol, drunkenness and/or addiction, that is sinful (Ephesians 5:18; Proverbs 23:29-35; 1 Corinthians 6:12; 2 Peter 2:19). Therefore, it would not have been a sin for Jesus to create a drink that contained alcohol.

A second, related argument is that by creating alcoholic wine, Jesus would have been promoting drunkenness, which the Bible clearly identifies as sinful. This is not a valid argument. Was Jesus promoting gluttony when He multiplied the fishes and loaves far beyond what the people needed? Of course not. Creating a substance that can be abused does not make one responsible when another person foolishly chooses to abuse it. Jesus creating alcoholic wine was in no sense encouraging drunkenness.

The belief that Jesus created alcoholic wine is definitely more in agreement with the context and the definition/usage of oinos. The primary reasons for interpreting it as grape juice, that alcohol is inherently sinful or that the creation of alcohol would have been encouraging drunkenness, are unbiblical and invalid. There is simply no good biblical reason to understand John 2 as anything other than Jesus performing an amazing miracle by turning water into real wine. Is drunkenness sinful? Absolutely! Is addiction sinful? Definitely. Would Jesus turning the water into alcoholic wine in any way violate God's standards regarding the consumption of alcohol? Absolutely not!
I honestly can't build on this...

Now, as for the question of how could Jesus have been called a drunkard without drinking? Easy. They were calling him such falsely. The pharisees not only called him a drunkard, but a glutton. We know that a) gluttony is a sin, it is clearly listed as such and b) Jesus never sinned. He lived a perfect life. So to call Jesus a glutton would be false a false statement to discredit Him. The same is applies for him being called a drunkard (note that I'm not saying he never drank wine, just that he never got drunk. Jesus definitely drank wine at some point, such as at the wedding).

Moving on!
joshthelegodude wrote:1 Corinthians 6:10 also only works in this way if you're being particularly extreme. If I play guitar all day once or twice a year am I a guitarist? I'd say no. If I set up my life so I have regular times to do it am I? Almost definitely.
Globalkoas wrote:
Anything that takes control of our MIND/WILL/EMOTIONS is a false god.

This is one of the most broad claims about the nature of sin that I've ever seen. Alcohol? Sin. Coffee? Sin. Gambling? Sin. Playing any game that has skinner box principles (video below) built into it? Sin. Eating any food you're craving (video below)? Sin. Spicy foods? Roller coasters? Also sin. I don't think this is a framework that can be used for anything other than thought experiments, and the utility of that is dubious.
This is a dangerous line of thinking, in my opinion. Yes, certain things can become sin if you let them dominate your life. But under this line of thinking, one might be able to justify things a little more on the fence, as long as it doesn't become a habit. Yes, I get that that isn't the point, but something to be cautious of nonetheless.

Personally, I never want to have a drop of alcohol enter my body, and I have a couple of reasons for this. First off, as it was previously mentioned, if others were to see this that were not yet believers or even new believers, it may cause them to stumble, due to the fact that I identify with Christ. Many people look down on Christians today because they see them in hypocrisy, saying to not harm others and then harming others (the majority of people who do this only SAY they're Christian).

The second is that I don't trust myself enough to only have 1. I don't want 1 to turn into 2, and the 3, and so on until I end up drunk. Yes, I know that is unlikely to happen, but alcohol impairs the mind. I just don't trust it.

The third is probably the thing that has the most impact, and that's the words of my old youth pastor. He once said that we shouldn't be asking if this is sin, or that's sin, because that means we are trying to walk on the line. We should want to be as far away from sin as possible. This is why we don't have ads on the site, for fear of pornographic ads. We want to stay as far away from sin as possible, and for me, that means alcohol.

I've rambled long enough. I just have one more thing before I close. Please, as Ongurth so subtly hinted, try to debate and not argue. Debate is respectful, arguing is a yelling match. This is apublic thread. Everyone, especially our leaders (and I mention them because it's mostly leaders on this thread), should be looking at each other with the eyes of Christ. I see things dangerously close to falling into such an argument, and that is the last thing I want to see happen.
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CPAX11
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Re: Question about tea drunk and Christianity

Post by CPAX11 » July 28th, 2017, 6:20 pm

Oh my goodness, I can't believe I caused this drama. I am so sorry.
But I see now, the only reason I had thought so was because of tea being highly different from alcohol.
Apologies to scribe for making him paranoid
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I am requesting a thread lock to stop the drama.
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