Israel: Their old, new capital.

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Kratos
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Israel: Their old, new capital.

Postby Kratos » December 6th, 2017, 2:19 pm

Trump's Announcement

The link is above in case you missed it.


What do you guys think? The last two Presidents have included in their campaign that they would do this. Trump also used this in his campaign. The last two Presidents continued to sign waivers postponing what Trump declared today.

It's interesting, to say the least. Obviously, most people from the left are furious and most people from the right are ecstatic. These initial reactions are fairly typical for any decision/announcement Trump makes. Neither side seems to be able to objectively react to much of anything these days.

What do you guys think of this? The danger is the increased unrest in the middle east. The objective, it would seem, is to create a stronger bond with our ally and increase their power.
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Re: Israel: Their old, new capital.

Postby shadowsbane » December 6th, 2017, 3:05 pm

The last two presidents probably promised and then didn't deliver because once they got in office they got a fuller picture of the ramifications of doing so. Trump just didn't care as much about it.

It certainly has the potential to seriously set peace talks back.

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Re: Israel: Their old, new capital.

Postby NeoJabez » December 6th, 2017, 5:27 pm

Honestly, bravo.

You look at somebody wrong over there and it sets peace talks back.

Sometimes you have to say, "this is how it is, now work around it."

Diplomacy is, sadly, a game. When countries come together to talk, it's always a room full of people who represent representatives. The State Department and their counterparts will engage in very careful conversations where anything said overtly is considered rude or 'stating a political position'. Trump just fried those circuits, and they hate it. They want to play the game their way.

And no, I'm not a particular Trump fan.
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Re: Israel: Their old, new capital.

Postby Kratos » December 6th, 2017, 5:30 pm

Well, the argument is the last two Presidents have abused their power as President (of course they have the right to delay such things, but for 20 years?). Congress passed the Jerusalem Embassy Act of 1995, declaring that America would move its embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem no later than 1999. Essentially, they understood what Congress decided, and have continuously delayed their decision.

Our political system is SUPPOSED to not allow ONE MAN to just make grand decisions. He may not agree, that's fine, but the system declared it. It's the basis of our nation, that we aren't a monarchy. The last two Presidents have essentially made this issue a "king's issue". At least, that's the argument.

I don't think it's fair to say Trump "didn't care". Trump says that we've been trying to produce peace in Israel for two decades and have gotten nowhere. To keep trying the same thing over and over again is foolish, according to Trump.

Just like the conservatives tried to paint Obama as this American hating, sociopath that was trying to give the reigns of America to the Islamic fanatics, the liberal side is doing the same with Trump. Except now, he's a foreigner hating, sociopath, white supremacist that wants to give the reigns of America to the wealthy white man. It's all political rhetoric that should be ignored. Both parties are more concerned with party success (I.E which party holds more seats at the table) than country success and that's getting old.

I don't know for a fact that Trump isn't trying to start world war three, but I feel like it's a safe assumption that he is not. I would think, he believes this is the right thing to do.

I've posted before how I believe the support of Israel (as a nation) is to support direct and open rebellion towards God. Some Christians support anything Israel because of some sense of duty that they infer from the Bible. A lot of Christians are ecstatic about this decision because they see it as a support to Israel therefore "following the Bible".

However, I do think it's important when America is dealing with our allies to separate the political and spiritual entities of the nation. In this case, Israel is our ally. I'm not speaking an ally, spiritually, but politically. It could be argued this is what's best for us, to support our ally.

I would agree this has the potential of really causing issues, but I’m not sure it sets anything back. What peace talks were in the making? From what I can tell, there wasn’t much in the ways of peace talks between Israel and their neighbors.
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Re: Israel: Their old, new capital.

Postby NeoJabez » December 6th, 2017, 6:18 pm

Indeed, at your last point. Hard to derail something that doesn't exist.

I definitely agree with how the two-party system demonizes the opposition.

I'm not carrying laurels for Obama, but turns out he wasn't the antichrist many painted him to be. Neither, I think, is Trump as bad as some say.

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Re: Israel: Their old, new capital.

Postby DynamiteTiger » December 8th, 2017, 1:57 am

Whether or not Jerusalem is Israel's capital is kind of besides the point when it comes to the conflicts between Israel and the Palestinians. The real point of contention, is whether or not that gives Israel complete rights and control of the temple mount, now the site of the Dome of the Rock or Harem al sharif and whether or not Jerusalem should be divided. This is what is going to be the deciding factor in the future of Jerusalem.

I believe a country has every right to choose where they want their capital to be but the problem here is whether or not Jerusalem can be divided peacefully. The issue at hand is most Jews think that the Muslim temple, Harem al sharif, was built on top of the previous site of the Jewish temples of old like Solomon's, and Muslims think that the land their forefathers claimed is theirs forever.

The fact is, it is still unknown where the Jewish temples were exactly. More importantly, it's been confirmed by archaeologists that the site of the temple mount was most likely the site of a previous Roman fortification and not the site of Solomon's temple. Only time will tell, but in the short term, the decision to recognize Jerusalem as Israels capital is guaranteed to cause more conflict and already has. Even though the Trump administration has stated that the decision does not include how/if Jerusalem can/will be divided.
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Re: Israel: Their old, new capital.

Postby Sabalanor » December 11th, 2017, 2:41 pm

I honestly think this was a calculated move that will be viewed in hind-sight as either very interesting or nothing at all. Right now, there are many protests. Given it some time, and those will die down. The interesting part is that this potentially shows the current strategy by the Palestinians will not necessarily work the way they were hoping.

Palestinian officials in my mindset have been pushing an anti-Israel strategy to boister their position and lessen the Israeli position. This is perfectly legal, but their overall choice has been time. They are pushing for a lot of things at the UN to push a negative light on Israel and highlight the good things about themselves. This means to me that they haven't taken talks very seriously up to this point, because they were hoping to get more through these alternate avenues. Trump has just thrown a giant wrench into that Strategy because the US is now recognizing Jerusalem as their capital officially after 22 years of postponing that move.

Hopefully, this gets Palestinian officials more interested in direct-talks to resolve this via the 1993 peace accords that said the future of Jerusalem is dependent on those talks. If this does spur more serious talks, then it is a move that will be highly regarded in the future. Only time will tell though. This move hasn't changed anything other than stopping the 6-month delay that was re-signed every 6 months. Peace needs to happen, but no one knows how to get that moving forward. Until that formula is found, things can't remain as is for long in a dynamic world.

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Re: Israel: Their old, new capital.

Postby Sabalanor » December 11th, 2017, 3:00 pm

Also, before people try to be too "anti" one administration or another...this move shouldn't be polarized. The Senate just voted this summer to commemorate the 50th anniversary of the unification of Jerusalem (after the 1967 war), and they voted 90-0 which included a statement that is near-identical to what Trump released last week about it. They hold these votes regularly, they just got used to it "meaning nothing since the President will just keep postponing the move." Trump isn't one to play games, or so it seems...

https://www.timesofisrael.com/senate-un ... ification/

Edit: added link to a story about the vote.


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