Transgender People in Christianity

Serious and MATURE conversations about Christianity
User avatar
NeoJabez
Council Operations
Council Operations
Posts: 10434
Joined: June 5th, 2005, 7:00 am

Re: Transgender People in Christianity

Post by NeoJabez » January 5th, 2018, 1:03 am

I disagree with the APA on the definition of gender. I understand that 115,000+ members of the APA would take issue with that, but just because that organization states that gender and sex are not equivalent does not make it truth.

There are thousands, or maybe even millions of 'pastafarians' on the planet, (people who follow the religion of the Flying Spaghetti Monster) but just because that many people all agree it is the truth does not make it so.

Not to mention that the APA has been called out in the last couple of decades more than once for pseudo-scientific postulations they couldn't back up, like their studies on the correlations between violence and video games, for example.

Having said all of that, either way...whatever the definition of words you wish to use, is our truth the objective reality we can all agree on, or is reality based on the subjective 'how we feel'?
word count: 159
If serving is below you, leadership is beyond you. - Anonymous

Coram Deo, Soli Deo Gloria

Image

Sabalanor
CC Member
CC Member
Posts: 164
Joined: May 11th, 2017, 12:35 pm
Battle.net Profile: Sabalanor#1527

Re: Transgender People in Christianity

Post by Sabalanor » January 5th, 2018, 9:21 am

How about this for consideration? If we can accept that the fall is the reason for defects...then why do we assume that the physical body is what is true vs. the mind or soul of a person being what God created and is more accurate? Could the fall not then allow for the body and genetics to be wrong where the soul is correct? Before you just reject this...why would we trust that the body or genetics are correct when there are people born with hearts outside there chest cavity (typically means death for the baby, but new surgical procedures can fix this), conjoined twins, and still-born births. The other thing is that we are all to receive "new bodies" as part of the 2nd coming of Christ, and that makes me think the soul is more important than what our physical bodies say about us on this Earth. This doesn't say "a better version of your current body to correct for the fall"...it just typically says "new body". The soul is preserved whereas the body is not.

I do agree the APA saying something about Gender vs. Sex is shaky at best, because like all organizations...they can flow conservative or liberal over time. Agendas get in the way of science at large organizations a lot unfortunately. But a lot of what they have said in the past is legit, even if sometimes they can get distracted by trying to show a correlation that might not be there.

Comparing "Pastafarians" to APA is not a good comparison either because that is comparing apples and oranges in my opinion as one is more scientific while the other is not. Having 115k scientists/psychologist/psychiatrists saying the same thing is potentially much more valid that millions of people who have no scientific reasoning for what they "say is true."
word count: 313

User avatar
NeoJabez
Council Operations
Council Operations
Posts: 10434
Joined: June 5th, 2005, 7:00 am

Re: Transgender People in Christianity

Post by NeoJabez » January 5th, 2018, 8:17 pm

I had actually used another example other than pastafarians, but felt like it might seem divisive at best, so I changed it. I had originally said there are 1.5 billion Muslims on the planet, that doesn't mean Mohammad is God's Prophet, even if they say so.

I agree that saying, "well, the body decides" over the mind is very subjective, particularly for someone who DOESN'T feel that way and cannot relate to a person who does, but the point is still the same, no matter which side you argue for...What is reality, something objective? Or is it entirely subjective?

Everyone who says that 'how they feel' is what drives them...Ironically in Christianity, we say they are 'in the flesh'...This is a very philosophical, esoteric debate that can twist and turn dramatically depending on where a person is "coming from", so I would argue that the first thing we could do is agree on terms, like...When we say genetically, we mean "____", for example. We can't leave room for semantic disagreements, or we will get stuck on them, instead of the 'meat' of what we're talking about. This is why we should use Scripture as much as possible as it is usually NOT ambiguous, but fairly clear and straightforward. Or, at least, we should look at Scripture as a model of how to present our thoughts unambiguously.

In the case of Maverick and Sabalanor, I see what you guys are saying completely, but hopefully you can see how some people would get hung up on how you're presenting it?
word count: 268
If serving is below you, leadership is beyond you. - Anonymous

Coram Deo, Soli Deo Gloria

Image

Sabalanor
CC Member
CC Member
Posts: 164
Joined: May 11th, 2017, 12:35 pm
Battle.net Profile: Sabalanor#1527

Re: Transgender People in Christianity

Post by Sabalanor » January 12th, 2018, 3:57 pm

I definitely can understand how semantics get in the middle of discussions and can screw them up. However, the only thing in essence that could be difficult in my mind (semantically at least :biggrin: ) is "spirit, mind, and flesh." Genetically is a very defined word naturally. So if we want to continue this (would love to), then I think we should identify what we feel is ambiguous and go from there.

- Spirit - Soul of a person, and almost interchangeable semantically with mind, so this one might need some fleshing out.
- Mind - See Spirit ...aka I don't know how we should separate the two in any pragmatic way.
- Flesh - the actual physical body and senses (touch, taste, sight, smell, sound).

Please feel free all to ask for clarification on anything we are trying to discuss here.
word count: 135

User avatar
NeoJabez
Council Operations
Council Operations
Posts: 10434
Joined: June 5th, 2005, 7:00 am

Re: Transgender People in Christianity

Post by NeoJabez » January 12th, 2018, 7:41 pm

I agree that perhaps the most problematic word, especially when we're trying to decide on objective vs. subjective is "mind".

People like to interchange MIND with so many other terms. I'm not really sure how to separate "MIND" either, Sab...I mean...My concept of mind is probably almost exactly the same as yours, but no two minds are exactly alike. Technically speaking, mind and brain are two different things, my imagination and your perception, my ideas, and your thoughts...We could get lost just debating those semantics all by themselves.

That sort of rabbit trail can be chaos for an objective vs. subjective discussion, heh.

Suffice to say that, for the sake of THIS discussion that there are people who define themselves based on how they feel internally, rather than anything external. My argument BEGINS (but doesn't end with!) the idea that what ANYONE with ANY MIND can externally sense is the first truth. So, if you have a male reproductive organ, boom! You're male. How you FEEL inside is subjective to YOU, not to both of us.

Obviously it gets more interesting when you start talking about ambiguous organs, but I would argue 9 times out of 10 in today's world, you're talking about people who don't have ambiguous organs or physicality, but instead just have WANTS that don't match up with their anatomy. True?
word count: 235
If serving is below you, leadership is beyond you. - Anonymous

Coram Deo, Soli Deo Gloria

Image

User avatar
TCL_cory
CC Member
CC Member
Posts: 28
Joined: December 18th, 2017, 4:40 pm
Steam Profile: kitty_husband
Location: Thunder Bay, Ontario Canada
Contact:

Re: Transgender People in Christianity

Post by TCL_cory » January 13th, 2018, 10:21 am

my thoughts are to remember to let god judge them and to love them
word count: 14
my fav verse: Matthew 19:26 Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

http://www.tinycanadianliving.com

User avatar
Crosser
Posts: 1111
Joined: February 17th, 2010, 7:03 pm
Steam Profile: crosser222
Contact:

Re: Transgender People in Christianity

Post by Crosser » January 13th, 2018, 11:24 am

TCL_cory wrote:my thoughts are to remember to let god judge them and to love them
My general reply to your particular comment:

1) Telling someone not to judge and only let God judge is itself a judgement on another person. So I'm definitely not convinced we aren't to judge people at all. I think we aren't to judge too quickly or hypocritically.

2) Yes, we are commanded to love people. But I would argue that we are to love people with both truth and compassion. We shouldn't just have truth without compassion and compassion without truth. Both are needed!
word count: 105
I look at the world from a different angle;
People change; even Satan used to be an angel..

User avatar
Maverick
CC Member
CC Member
Posts: 449
Joined: November 23rd, 2009, 12:36 pm
Steam Profile: STEAM_1:1:15648643
Origin Profile: CCMaverick
Battle.net Profile: Maverick#12160
Formerly Known As: AppleJacks
Location: Rogers, AR

Re: Transgender People in Christianity

Post by Maverick » January 13th, 2018, 12:42 pm

I don't believe that people just have WANTS that don't match up with their anatomy. I don't think that people choose to enter into that pain, discomfort, and discrimination.

I want people to entertain the idea that how you feel inside is just as objective as your body parts.
I want people to really think about waking up and not feeling like your body is correct. Not asking people to believe it. Just consider it. Transgender persons are suffering regardless of how we feel about it. I have a hard time dismissing "how people feel inside."

I encourage people to do some reading into the science behind gender identity and the various treatments. Read material on both sides and read accounts of people struggling. As Christians I believe we do need to encounter the transgender community and get to know them and their stories. Without doing this, I don't think we will be able to develop the empathy that is necessary to truly love them.
word count: 169
Image

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests