Jesus, and Religion

Serious and MATURE conversations about Christianity
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Reconize
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Re: Jesus, and Religion

Post by Reconize » May 17th, 2016, 10:57 am

where do you think morals come from? I think it has everything to do with the video. he's speaking to religion right? if everyone, as an individual, can make their own moral code, where does that leave us. religious institutions can guide us and give us an absolute moral code to live by. they can provide us with a stance on new technologies that may not be so clear cut in the biblical word.
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Re: Jesus, and Religion

Post by Gidget » May 17th, 2016, 11:13 am

Source of morality is not the point of the video though. Definition of Jesus verses religion is. Which has nothing to do with one's view of morality.
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The harvest is plentiful, but the laborers are few;
therefore beseech the Lord of the harvest to send out laborers into His harvest.
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Re: Jesus, and Religion

Post by Reconize » May 17th, 2016, 11:20 am

well i disagree with him. see i love what my religion gives me. what it shows me. the community i have with it. how it guides me. gives me direction when i am lost, have questions, need somewhere to turn, need help.

i think he may not fully understand what religion is meant to do. perhaps he had the wrong one or one that did not fulfill his needs. that's not to say he is wrong to follow Jesus, but to call all religions unnecessary is a mistake. what does he do if he has questions. where does he turn for guidance on certain issues.
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Re: Jesus, and Religion

Post by Reconize » May 17th, 2016, 11:26 am

my brother showed me the video about five years ago or so and we had the same discussion.
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Re: Jesus, and Religion

Post by Cptn Merika » May 17th, 2016, 11:30 am

well i disagree with him. see i love what my religion gives me. what it shows me. the community i have with it. how it guides me. gives me direction when i am lost, have questions, need somewhere to turn, need help.


Being a part of a church does offer that, but religion does not cause that to happen. The church body united under their Savior does because each person is held accountable by each other. (in my opinion).



God created man, then man created religion.

i think he may not fully understand what religion is meant to do. perhaps he had the wrong one or one that did not fulfill his needs. that's not to say he is wrong to follow Jesus, but to call all religions unnecessary is a mistake. what does he do if he has questions. where does he turn for guidance on certain issues.


The answer is simple:

Psalms 32:8 - When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.

Spoiler! :
But relationship with God cannot be found through religion. In fact, religion is the biggest roadblock to seeking a relationship with God. Religion is simply Man trying to reach out to God by doing something that he thinks will please God. “If I can do enough, say enough, pray enough, give enough, sacrifice enough perhaps God will show me favor”. Every religion is based upon this “works theology”. Neither ceremony, liturgy, creeds, sacraments nor money have ever brought one soul into a reconciled relationship to God. Abstaining from drugs, alcohol, tobacco, illicit sex and the places that provide them is a healthy thing to do but cannot of itself restore a broken relationship with God. Giving up a favorite food or drink, reciting ‘program prayers’ or self mutilation does nothing to convince or satisfy God.


The following is from a website I found a while ago, that really just puts the subject into perspective.


Spoiler! :
You might wonder "How on earth God could hate religion? Ridiculous! God loves religion. GOD IS RELIGION! Or at least He's completely in favour of it... surely? Saying that 'God hates religion' seems like talk of 'Peace keeping Missiles' or 'Cold heat'. Impressive contradictions designed to catch our attention.

But its true, God does hate religion. And the reason is that religion is not relationship. Religion is all about us trying to impress God with large buildings, sacrifices, good works and inspirational cultural achievements. But, and this may be hard to hear, God's just not interested in us impressing him.

The reason isn't that surprising when you think about it. It's simply that, whilst human achievements might be truly wonderful, our hearts aren't. In fact, the human heart is dreadful.

During Jesus' ministry on earth there were some who thought that washing their hands might make them clean before God. Jesus responded that it's what comes out of a person's heart that makes them unclean. He said:

For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. These are what make a man 'unclean'; but eating with unwashed hands does not make him 'unclean.'
You see, Religion is like washing your hands to clean your heart - hopeless window dressing. You may as well put a band aid on cancer! And God hates that we do it. He hates that we pretend that religion is the answer. In the Bible God says, "They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men."

What God wants is relationship. Not on our terms with our rules and rituals. He doesn't want us to do something to establish relationship with him. No, He's done what needs to be done. You could say, God's already done the religious thing. He sent his son Jesus to die on the cross to pay for our sin so that we can have friendship with him. Jesus' death is the only offering that pleases God. It is the only religious sacrifice that God accepts.

One way of thinking about this is that Religion is what we try to do to please God whereas Jesus' death and resurrection is what God has already done that saves us. (retrieved from http://www.gothatesreligion.org.au
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"Be strong and courageous. Do not be afraid or terrified because of them, for the LORD your God goes with you; he will never leave you nor forsake you." - Deuteronomy 31:6

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Re: Jesus, and Religion

Post by shadowsbane » May 17th, 2016, 11:57 am

Religion is a cultural system of behaviors and practices, world views, sacred texts, holy places, ethics, and societal organisation that relate humanity to what an anthropologist has called "an order of existence".

: the belief in a god or in a group of gods
: an organized system of beliefs, ceremonies, and rules used to worship a god or a group of gods
: an interest, a belief, or an activity that is very important to a person or group


What part of those definitions does Christianity not meet? We have a certain set or beliefs and practices (the Trinity, prayer, worship), world views (we are here to glorify the God of the universe), sacred texts (do I have to point it out?), holy places (not quite as important in modern Christianity, but there are several), ethics ("be holy, for I am holy"), societal organization (pastors, deacons...).

We believe in a God. The one true God, Creator of the universe.
We have an organized system of beliefs (the Trinity, creation, etc.), ceremonies (baptism), and rules of worship (OK maybe not rules, but worship is loosely defined in the Bible).
And interests, beliefs and activities that are important to a group of people. Communal worship, discipleship, evangelism...

Honestly, I'm intensely curious how anyone can justify the statement "God hates religion".

Edit: As for man creating religion, I'd like to point you to the entire book of Leviticus.

Edit 2: You know what, I'm not done with that last quote of yours after all. "What God wants is relationship... so that we can have friendship with him."

Deuteronomy 6:10-12 And now, Israel, what does the Lord your God ask of you but to fear the Lord your God, to walk in obedience to him, to love him, to serve the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, and to observe the Lord’s commands and decrees that I am giving you today for your own good?

Micah 6:8 He has shown you, O man, what is good; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justly, To love mercy, And to walk humbly with your God?

Mark 12:29-31 Jesus answered him, “The first of all the commandments is: ‘Hear, O Israel, the LORD our God, the LORD is one. ‘And you shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.’ This is the first commandment. “And the second, like it, is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”

John 4:23 “But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him."

John 14:23 "Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him."


I'm going to make a bold statement here, and you're free to disagree with me using scripture: I'm going to say that God's primary desire is not to be your friend.
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Re: Jesus, and Religion

Post by Reconize » May 17th, 2016, 11:59 am

from your website thing. Religion is all about us trying to impress God with large buildings, sacrifices, good works and inspirational cultural achievements. But, and this may be hard to hear, God's just not interested in us impressing him.

then you have the wrong religion. I have been on many deployments and not once did we ever have a big building. we rarely had any building. never once did we try to impress God. we simply got together wherever we could. but we had religion. even now, back stateside our church is very modest. nothing fancy at all. but we have religion.
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Re: Jesus, and Religion

Post by Gidget » May 17th, 2016, 12:24 pm

Cptn Merika wrote:

During Jesus' ministry on earth there were some who thought that washing their hands might make them clean before God. Jesus responded that it's what comes out of a person's heart that makes them unclean. He said:

For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. These are what make a man 'unclean'; but eating with unwashed hands does not make him 'unclean.


But he also said:
Matthew 5:17-20 wrote:"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.


So which is it? He hates religion or he came to establish religion?
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The harvest is plentiful, but the laborers are few;
therefore beseech the Lord of the harvest to send out laborers into His harvest.
Luke 10:2


http://www.lifeofkilo.blogspot.com

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Re: Jesus, and Religion

Post by Cptn Merika » May 17th, 2016, 1:47 pm

Edit 2: You know what, I'm not done with that last quote of yours after all. "What God wants is relationship... so that we can have friendship with him."

Deuteronomy 6:10-12 And now, Israel, what does the Lord your God ask of you but to fear the Lord your God, to walk in obedience to him, to love him, to serve the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, and to observe the Lord’s commands and decrees that I am giving you today for your own good?

Micah 6:8 He has shown you, O man, what is good; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justly, To love mercy, And to walk humbly with your God?

Mark 12:29-31 Jesus answered him, “The first of all the commandments is: ‘Hear, O Israel, the LORD our God, the LORD is one. ‘And you shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.’ This is the first commandment. “And the second, like it, is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”

John 4:23 “But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him."

John 14:23 "Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him."


I'm going to make a bold statement here, and you're free to disagree with me using scripture: I'm going to say that God's primary desire is not to be your friend.


John 15:12-17. I agree God's primary desire is not to be your friend, but you took one word in the statement above and changed the meaning that it was used in context with the statement. The context of the term "Friendship" used is to signify trust and love between God and you. (that is my bad for not clarifying, since I copy/pasted that part which is why it is referenced)

Religion is a cultural system of behaviors and practices, world views, sacred texts, holy places, ethics, and societal organisation that relate humanity to what an anthropologist has called "an order of existence".

: the belief in a god or in a group of gods
: an organized system of beliefs, ceremonies, and rules used to worship a god or a group of gods
: an interest, a belief, or an activity that is very important to a person or group


If you read the definition that you posted on religion, you are included Christianity into the same group that all other "religions" around the world have. So by this definition, are you saying that God does not hate Islam, Buddhism, Shinto, etc which are all religions? Or would you say that Christianity does not fall under that "religion" tree?

Spoiler! :
Religion is inevitably the result of man taking that which is of God and forming it, formulating it, in such a way that it is not what God favors. Religion is a set of man-made do's and don'ts in order to appease God.Religion is spelled do while Christianity is spelled done because the work has been done.


Some verses related to God's anger/hate towards religions: Deuteronomy 12:31, Isaiah 1:10-15, Amos 5:21-24.

But he also said:
Matthew 5:17-20 wrote:
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.


So which is it? He hates religion or he came to establish religion?


These verses, really has nothing to do with religion, or the basis of religion. These verses have to do with Jesus coming to full fill the Old Testament.

Matthew 5:17-18 - Jesus is saying that He has full filled the Old Testament "Do not think that I cam to abolish the Law or the Prophets (old testament); I did not come to abolish but to full fill." This is Jesus explaining one of the reasons that He came to earth.

Matthew 5:19-20 - Jesus is now talking about the Kingdom, talking about all disciples and believers referring to how some will be called to greater things than others, but that if you keep and teach the Word that all will be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven.

Jesus did not come to establish "religion." He came to full fill the Old Testament and do the will of the Father. (John 5:30).

Jesus came to:
Spoiler! :
Give His Life - Matthew 20:28
Save Sinners - 1 Timothy 1:15
Full fill prophecy - Matthew 5:17, Romans 15:8
Seek the Lost - Ephesians 2:13-15, Matthew 5:17-18
Save the Lost - Matthew 18:11
To Serve - Mark 10:45
Reveal the Father - Matthew 11:27, John 14:9
Do the Will of God - Hebrews 10:9
To Preach - Luke 4:43
Bring Judgement - John 9:39
To Be King - John 18:37
Witness to the Truth - John 18:37
Put Away Sin - Hebrews 9:26, 1 John 3:5, John 1:29
Destroy the Works of The Devil - 1 John 3:8, Hebrews 2:14
Send a Sword - Matthew 10:34-36
Bear Our Sins - 1 Peter 2:24, Hebrews 9:28
Provide the Pattern of a Holy Life - 1 Peter 2:21, Matthew 11:29


To summarize is this:
Religious - relating to or believing in a religion
Religion - the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods
Faith - Complete trust or confidence in someone or something.

Notice faith doesn't require you to believe in a religion, to in turn belief in a worship God. That is the difference between faith (relationship) and religion.
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"Be strong and courageous. Do not be afraid or terrified because of them, for the LORD your God goes with you; he will never leave you nor forsake you." - Deuteronomy 31:6

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Re: Jesus, and Religion

Post by shadowsbane » May 17th, 2016, 2:22 pm

You're just trying to be pedantic because you don't like the word religion.

Deuteronomy 12:31 - You shall not worship the LORD your God in that way, for every abominable thing that the LORD hates they have done for their gods, for they even burn their sons and their daughters in the fire to their gods.


God hates what they did because they did bad things, and did it for a false god. This lends no weight to your argument.

Isaiah 1:10-15 - Hear the word of the Lord, you rulers of Sodom! Give ear to the teaching of our God, you people of Gomorrah! “What to me is the multitude of your sacrifices? says the Lord; I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams and the fat of well-fed beasts; I do not delight in the blood of bulls, or of lambs, or of goats. “When you come to appear before me, who has required of you this trampling of my courts? Bring no more vain offerings; incense is an abomination to me. New moon and Sabbath and the calling of convocations—I cannot endure iniquity and solemn assembly. Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hates; they have become a burden to me; I am weary of bearing them. When you spread out your hands, I will hide my eyes from you; even though you make many prayers, I will not listen; your hands are full of blood.


This is to a specific people, because of their great iniquity and vain offerings. This is not an indictment of religion as a whole.

And let's expand the Amos 5 bit a little:

Amos 5:21-27 - “I hate, I despise your feasts, and I take no delight in your solemn assemblies. Even though you offer me your burnt offerings and grain offerings, I will not accept them; and the peace offerings of your fattened animals, I will not look upon them. Take away from me the noise of your songs; to the melody of your harps I will not listen. But let justice roll down like waters, and righteousness like an ever-flowing stream. “Did you bring to me sacrifices and offerings during the forty years in the wilderness, O house of Israel? You shall take up Sikkuth your king, and Kiyyun your star-god—your images that you made for yourselves, and I will send you into exile beyond Damascus,” says the Lord, whose name is the God of hosts.


Again, not an indictment of religion in general. God is angry with them for very specific things.

These verses, really has nothing to do with religion, or the basis of religion. These verses have to do with Jesus coming to full fill the Old Testament.


Yes, they do. Based on the definition of religion, Jesus is saying that he has not come to destroy it, but to fulfill the one true religion and its prophecies. And of course Jesus didn't come to establish religion. No one here is arguing that.

Yes, Christianity is lumped under the group "religions" with Buddhism, Sikhism, Islam, etc. Because they are all religions. Just because only one of them is right, does not mean that one is not a religion.

Say I ask a group of people "What is 2 plus 2?" One person says 4, another says 7 and a third says pi. Those are all answers, by the definition of the word. Two of them are wrong answers, but they are, nonetheless, answers.

Christianity is a religion, by the definition of the word, and God does not hate religion. He hates false religions, false prophets, false teachers, false gods, vain sacrifices, profane offerings... The verses you posted speak to those specific circumstances. But nowhere in the Bible does it say that God hates religion.

Religion is spelled do while Christianity is spelled done because the work has been done.


Save your catchy phrases. I'll stick with the Bible.
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