Capitalism Vs Socialism

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Capitalism Vs Socialism

Post by Kratos » December 7th, 2017, 10:35 am

An economic and political system in which a country's trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit, rather than by the state.
A political and economic theory of social organization that advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.
Curious if you think the media driven argument follows these definitions?

Also, where do you stand on these issues? I searched the forum and found no topic specifically about this.

I was having this discussion with a couple of close friends and they had opposing views. I didn't say much in the conversation because they began getting pretty irritated at each other (as most of these conversations get), but it's an interesting conversation.

It isn't very different from "free will vs predestination". For obvious reasons, both sides can feel attacked by the other. A socialist, believing socialism is the best for everyone (including themselves), would believe that someone desiring capitalism is desiring a system that is not beneficial to the general population (i.e. harmful). The opposite is true, as well. A capitalist, believing capitalism is the best for everyone(including themselves), would believe that someone desiring socialism is desiring a system that is not beneficial to the general population (i.e. harmful). Repeated on purpose...:P

Both sides seem to judge the other that they are lazy or greedy. While both could be true, neither are any more likely than the other. Everyone wants to work less and everyone wants to make more money. These are conditions of being human. If you do not fall in either of these categories I can assure you, you are the outlier.
Spoiler! :
(or a liar...get it?, I crack myself up...:P)
Anyways, socialism or capitalism? If you could use logic, I would appreciate it. As in, have a working example of your opinion. As in, don't say, "Socialism is better because it cares about everyone!" or "Capitalism is better because you can't be lazy!" These are just insulting to the other side. No point. You can use these principals in your opinion without being insulting. Use data or an example of it happening elsewhere, if you feel that way.

There are plenty of examples of socialism and capitalism in our world outside of the USA. Just take a gander at North and South Korea. That's basically a side by side comparison. :P
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Re: Capitalism Vs Socialism

Post by Scrunch » December 7th, 2017, 10:01 pm

Oh boy oh boy, one of my favorite topics. But perhaps it should be a bit more broad, more like Marxist philosophies versus Laissez-faire/market based solutions (I don't mean Marxist detrimentally just in that no persons have established principals in this ideology further than did Marx and Engels). The focal point of this topic is really individualism via personal ownership or communal ownership of properties and resources. While the argument often goes "socialism has never worked", in theory what could be better than taking away the abuses of powerful people by placing all resources at the disposal of all the people? Historically we can see that the leadership of these socialist experiments, communism being the worst offender (Stalin, Chairman Mao), have been very oppressive in their own right. That kinda takes the steam out of the idea that fairness can be enforced. On the other hand, lack of ethics in a market based system also leads to abuses (Rockefeller). In a historical comparison the leaders of Marxist movements have certainly been more brutal. Market based solutions obviously lack brutal dictators, but have flaws as well. In a market economy when things get out of hand the market will correct itself. Both examples (dictators vs. market failures) being extremes, one would think an appropriate middle ground could be found in one or both of these philosophies, and that different societies could implement that solid middle ground to the benefit of all. However, in all 'socialist' countries it is not the people who control the resources, it is the governments. Furthermore, in all 'capitalist' countries it is not the people who control the markets, it is the governments. In a world where men and women seek and rise to power it is an ongoing reality that corruption (sin) is the major influence that those men and women bring to the table.

So, in my opinion, in a bubble where we are all equal Marxist philosophies don't sound bad. In the reality where we none of us are exactly equal (being created with no two alike), individualism and open markets have lifted economies (including the poor in them) to soaring heights. Regarding our current political climate (U.S.), I don't think we're really either one. The inner workings of "the beltway" at least seem to be run by lobbyists and special interests. For full transparency I'm an 'independant' in my state.
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Re: Capitalism Vs Socialism

Post by Raphael » January 5th, 2018, 4:47 pm

Neither. Our answers of what is best are found in a Biblical based and Spirit led approach to societal structure.
The world is often good at identifying problems with the way the current systems work, but rarely comes to adequate answers because they either use human reasoning or take on the doctrines of demons.

Communism/Socialism was a reaction to the abuses and failures of industrialization. But they turned the car to avoid a ditch only to run off a cliff. Just identifying the problem didn't tell them the right way to go.

People need to talk more about the real missing ingredient: Godly people and godly leaders.
Even the most authoritarian system could be a paradise to live under if the leader were a perfect king like Jesus. But a supposedly free society without moral constraint and just leadership would be a place ruled by fear and crime that no one would want to live under, so no one really has freedom in that society.
It's not unlike the comparison between how satan promises freedom from God, but really only delivers enslavement to fear and death. Only by living under Jesus's rulership can we experience the free and fulfilling life we were designed to have.

I was a free market capitalist libertarian before converting to Christ. But by having my mind renewed by God's word and Spirit I've come to realize that all these man made ideologies and systems miss the mark in key ways. I think the failings of communism/socialism are well understood here, but less understood are is how secular capitalists often make the mistake of basically deifying market forces as some kind of law of nature that can only ever produce good things. They make it an idol that they attribute all our prosperity and security to.

If we look at the Bible we can find certain principles that must be followed for the best society, and can see right away that communism/socialism are inspired by satan for the way they directly contradict God's intentions.

The Bible shows us God's model involves:
-Private property ownership.
-Respecting that ownership.
-The right to enjoy the fruits of your labor.
-Income and sales are not taxed by anyone.
-The right to do with all the increase of your land what you want, the only requirement being that you give some back to God.
-The right to inherit your parents property and wealth without anything being taken away.

But, there are also some other things in the Bible that a capitalist society driven by the idol of profit motive alone would have no reason to include:
-The abolition of all debts (which is connected freeing any slaves) and returning of land to their original owners at periodic intervals.
-Commands to not oppress your neighbor financially (Trying to take advantage of them economically, or force them into a position of economic dependence on and subservience to you).
-Observing periods of rest from work every 7th day, and every 7th year (Think lower work hours and more vacation time).
-Commands to give and share with those in need out of your abundance.
-Commands to let the poor glean from your productivity.
-The principle that every family should have access to land to be able to provide for themselves, so they are not forced to become a servant or slave of those who do have land.

Free market idolatry often don't recognize the inherent power disparity that exists between those with the resources and those without, which God sought to curb through the principles revealed in His law. If profit is your only motivation you will inevitably end up with an incredibly unjust, unfree, and ultimately not even very prosperous society that declines into neofeudalism where the powerful seek to expand their power and soldify themselves, turning the rest of the population into slaves that are only provided enough to not die outright, and are only even kept alive because it serves the interests of those in power to have them around.

Free markets by definition need justice to stay truly free. Otherwise you end up with crony capitalism that will eventually devolve into authoritarian corporatism (fascism).

Of course, communism results in the same thing too.
Unfortunately, the great lie often told is that fascism and communism are diametrically opposed, when in fact they are essentially the same in almost every way. They are just different routes to arrive at the same destination of evil.

Authoritarian fuedalism/fascism/communism appears to be satan's model, the "world system" Jesus referred to. Any ungodly society, regardless of what economic system they start with, is going to devolve in that direction.

The Bible tells us there are principles that any society needs, regardless of economic model, to function well:
-The center of society must be based on following God.
-A society that teaches God's ways to their children and disciplines them in righteousness.
-Leaders who do right, punishing those who violate godly laws and protecting the righteous.
-Administering justice fairly regardless of economic class.

If you take care of the basic foundational things like that, then your society will trend upwards in prosperity and freedom. If you don't tend to those things, then it doesn't matter how free you think your market is today, it's all going to go downhill towards the one predictable point of evil.
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Re: Capitalism Vs Socialism

Post by Zhies » November 2nd, 2018, 7:35 pm

Socialism only works when God is the one actually giving the orders. Any other attempt at this has gone bad. People mention "successful socialist countries", but in fact those countries only became successful when there was less control on commerce and more privatization.

Capitalism works in this world for the simple fact that greed exists, and it is more profitable for a business to beat their competitors by providing more affordable prices. Capitalism or "competition" is actually what counters greed - by using greed to counter greed. I know that sounds crazy, but the only places that are poor are usually heavily regulated by big governments. Places that prosper have small governments with less restrictions.

You can tell a tree by it's fruit. Don't get lost in all the other details.
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